Tribe.net. Local Connections Bart http://CH3CH2CH3.tribe.net/thread/32d50b1a-3bb5-42c6-9c6c-aaf3a153f18e#f3cf63ef-cd1c-48e9-a251-edb6d29c4002 2009-07-12T07:01:29Z 2009-07-12T07:01:29Z

I'd rather use stainless wool, since it doesn't melt so easily. Readily available in small quantities from mcmaster carr. So far, the regular steel wool has lasted the week, but I don't use the poofer that heavily.... - Bart

Bart 2009-07-12T07:01:29Z XTREME PYRO http://CH3CH2CH3.tribe.net/thread/32d50b1a-3bb5-42c6-9c6c-aaf3a153f18e#3551b9be-7800-4272-a72e-aad221887880 2009-07-11T14:12:38Z 2009-07-11T14:12:38Z

Would the steel/bronze wool location very like the Pilot light proximity?

XTREME PYRO 2009-07-11T14:12:38Z Steamboat Ed http://CH3CH2CH3.tribe.net/thread/32d50b1a-3bb5-42c6-9c6c-aaf3a153f18e#77949215-6b50-445e-bb3a-c083149cb95f 2009-07-11T04:21:35Z 2009-07-11T04:21:35Z

If you can find it, don't use steel wool; use bronze wool. It won't 'rust' and it doesn't burn as readily.

Steamboat Ed 2009-07-11T04:21:35Z Tedward http://CH3CH2CH3.tribe.net/thread/32d50b1a-3bb5-42c6-9c6c-aaf3a153f18e#0d5c332e-2fae-4c10-9180-62b20a920527 2009-07-09T20:12:42Z 2009-07-09T20:12:42Z

The point to the wool is to get hot an maintain autoignition temp for the propane. Yes, stuffing it inside the tube should not have worked. Naturally there will be some dripping. I've heard that copper wire functions for this purpose as well (no dripping).

Tedward 2009-07-09T20:12:42Z mr. dug http://CH3CH2CH3.tribe.net/thread/32d50b1a-3bb5-42c6-9c6c-aaf3a153f18e#d66b5aa9-0764-46bd-a253-33b69eb6d877 2009-07-09T14:28:47Z 2009-07-09T14:28:47Z

steel wool question: the fire kept getting blown out by the wind. i put some steel wool up there. i shoved the steel wool down the pipe for 2 of them, this seemed to block the flow too much to light the other 2 i slid it over the whole pipe, itself and that seems to be much better however, when i light it up, steel wool sparks rain down initially. is this normal? it's the roughest wool i could find at home depot. maybe i should go smooth? any recommendations on how to attach it? or just leave it loosly sitting there? or tie it firmly with wire or something?

mr. dug 2009-07-09T14:28:47Z mr. dug http://CH3CH2CH3.tribe.net/thread/32d50b1a-3bb5-42c6-9c6c-aaf3a153f18e#4be1a6e8-77aa-45c5-9a41-8d0c79ef39a0 2009-06-24T19:58:58Z 2009-06-24T19:58:58Z

yeah, i got paranoid and put a shutoff valve on there. so yeah, i open the tank valve wide open. those first few times i'd then open the flow valve all the way, too. now i open the flow valve half way or even 1/4 and i'm a little faster at lighting it now, too. since those pics i've put a bushing to go from 1/2" down to 1/4" and added 4 inch nipples to try to keep the flames a little further away from all those fittings. dunno if the heat is a concern for those or not. also hoping to get the pressure up to try to get taller, thinner flames. i also went with galvanized fittings, dunno if that's a concern? i've ordered a 0-60 PSIG regulator with a gauge. does more pressure cause more smoke? i'm hearing that it's best to keep it under 8LBS most of the time. what's the limit of black pipe? any reason to scale things from mostly 1/2" up to 3/4" or something? will the 1/2" get ripped apart at full blast? what can i expect at full blast? currently the flames can go about 2-3 feet... although i'm curious to see what happens when i cap 3 of the 4 holes.

mr. dug 2009-06-24T19:58:58Z Tedward http://CH3CH2CH3.tribe.net/thread/32d50b1a-3bb5-42c6-9c6c-aaf3a153f18e#d148c820-0fe1-4117-b3cc-2f49a45fe39f 2009-06-22T18:46:13Z 2009-06-22T18:46:13Z

I think it's a matter of volume. I've made a couple of staves out of copper tube with a portable tank on the bottom and two ball valves. I open the tank valve fully, then set the flow with the upper valve. The staff body becomes the expansion chamber. For producing a softball sized illumination flame, the staff never even gets cold. But if I throw open the upper gate to get a big poof, I start freezing up in seconds.

Tedward 2009-06-22T18:46:13Z Shawn http://CH3CH2CH3.tribe.net/thread/32d50b1a-3bb5-42c6-9c6c-aaf3a153f18e#86a05167-f5a8-4e6f-8937-ea1a1366937c 2009-06-22T17:58:26Z 2009-06-22T17:58:26Z

Doug's lantern is modeled after one that we use. Our application is purely for light, having run for 6-8 hours straight in various weather conditions we have yet to have a freeze up problem at the tank valve (it may just be a matter of time). What I have seen: The tank has frozen to the ground As much as 1/4 - 1/2" of ice and another 1/2 of hoar frost (on a tank starting from full up to ~80% of the tank height)

Shawn 2009-06-22T17:58:26Z Shawn http://CH3CH2CH3.tribe.net/thread/32d50b1a-3bb5-42c6-9c6c-aaf3a153f18e#6f7dc684-2538-45f0-af17-004836d253a8 2009-06-22T17:39:06Z 2009-06-22T17:39:06Z

We have found that the tank valve does a good job of adjusting the flame height. From your description it sounds like you either had the tank valve wide open or had a fair delay between opening the valve and igniting the propane. Generally to light ours I open the tank valve just to the point of gas flow, ignite the gas and perform subsequent flow adjustments directly from the tank valve.

Shawn 2009-06-22T17:39:06Z Tedward http://CH3CH2CH3.tribe.net/thread/32d50b1a-3bb5-42c6-9c6c-aaf3a153f18e#41240929-f33a-44ec-8630-de1784826a5e 2009-06-19T02:56:30Z 2009-06-19T02:56:30Z

Yup, freeze up can be a problem, which is why, I was told, you want to use ball valves rather than anything more complex. This is all good stuff on regulation, though. You don't generally hear anything like this when you're making Poofers, so this is getting filed for future use.... :)

Tedward 2009-06-19T02:56:30Z shawn http://CH3CH2CH3.tribe.net/thread/32d50b1a-3bb5-42c6-9c6c-aaf3a153f18e#9ca46207-210d-4af3-b7aa-733bb2c9be95 2009-06-18T23:40:15Z 2009-06-18T23:40:15Z

Yes, you can use a simple valve to restrict the flow by only opening it a small amount. This is what Tedward mentioned in reply, I think. When used this way with an unregulated fuel supply, I've heard stories of valves occasionally freezing up. I think that usually means they freeze shut and flow is restricted more, not that they freeze open, but I've never had this experience and always stick a regulator near my tank to get the pressure down to the lowest level that works to achieve the desired effect. Upgrading to a larger regulator and higher pressure probably won't directly increase your flow linearly like the "60 times" number you mentioned, but it will make a huge difference, so be extra careful when you try out your flame effect the first time. Maximum flow is going to be determined by a number of factors besides pressure. The small opening at the tank connection is a limiting factor, for example. There's also a limit to how fast the liquid propane can boil off into a gas state for a given tank size. That's why folks who want to make big propane fireballs use a second accumulator tank to temporarily store fuel that's already turned from liquid to gas. Yes, a pilot light and solenoid valve can be used to trigger a larger flow and bigger flame. You'll need a valve that is rated for LP gas (i.e. seals and such won't corrode when exposed to propane), normally closed (so it shuts off automatically if there's a power failure), and is also rated for vapor propane pressure (over 200 PSI on a hot day). Don't try to use a cheap garden sprinkler valve... it's likely to fail for a variety of reasons. Search through the old threads in this tribe and you'll find some specific recommendations for solenoid valves (like the ASCO 8210 series). Be safe, have fun.

shawn 2009-06-18T23:40:15Z mr. dug http://CH3CH2CH3.tribe.net/thread/32d50b1a-3bb5-42c6-9c6c-aaf3a153f18e#51b4cabe-5c91-4de9-ba85-2f28913fff06 2009-06-18T20:20:04Z 2009-06-18T20:20:04Z

ok so i think that answers another question: can i use the valve on the tank to affect the size of the flame when i'm using a non-adjustable regulator? my hunch is that the answer is yes. the pressure remains the same, only the flow is affected. it also seems that upgrading to a 0-30 PSI regulator means my flames can be dramatically bigger. like 60 times bigger. that's pretty intense. a next step after that would be to maybe have a pilot light run. and use a valve or trigger or something to suddenly open/close the big flow? thoughts?

mr. dug 2009-06-18T20:20:04Z mr. dug http://CH3CH2CH3.tribe.net/thread/32d50b1a-3bb5-42c6-9c6c-aaf3a153f18e#6fc13424-485b-4fab-94c0-ac9d75da9c7f 2009-06-18T20:10:31Z 2009-06-18T20:10:31Z

does the valve on the tank act as a flashback suppressor?

mr. dug 2009-06-18T20:10:31Z shawn http://CH3CH2CH3.tribe.net/thread/32d50b1a-3bb5-42c6-9c6c-aaf3a153f18e#0c151dc6-be2f-43a9-a47e-9ea64dad7300 2009-06-18T19:50:09Z 2009-06-18T19:50:09Z

To go back to an earlier question, a typical grill regulator sets a pressure that's usually specified as 11 inches of water column, i.e. the amount of pressure generated by a column of water a bit less than a foot high at a certain temperature. This is a fairly low pressure, about 0.5 PSI. Are you familiar with basic electricity? There are actually a couple of similar principles here. Pressure corresponds somewhat to voltage in this analogy. But there's another measurement, and that's the diameter of your pipe or wire. In electrical terms, this would be current. The flow of your fuel is determined by a number of factors, but these are two important ones. I've read different opinions about how to best control flow in a flame effects system. Some regulation of pressure is almost always desirable, because certain components like hoses and pipes may have limited ratings and can rupture if too much pressure is applied. A pressure regulator mechanism typically uses a spring and a diaphragm to restrict flow and match it to a certain level. Seals and such should be rated for propane (LPG) to avoid deterioration. High-quality regulators cost about $50 and often include an additional port to which you can screw in an optional gauge for precise measurement of the pressure. The nice feature of regulators is that they are self-regulating; the temperature of the fuel tank can fluctuate (and therefore the pressure inside the tank) but the regulator will keep the output constant. As an alternative to a regulator, you can also use a simple valve mechanism to restrict the flow. This effectively reduces the size of the pipe (in electrical terms, the diameter of the wire and current capacity) but doesn't directly reduce the pressure (in electrical terms, the voltage). In particular, by using only a valve without a regulator you'll experience changes in output pressure based on temperature. So when your tank is warm, you'll get more fuel flow, and as the tank cools, you'll get less. A gas grill uses both mechanisms to get the best of both worlds: a regulator to set a constant and reliable pressure, and a valve knob to further restrict and adjust the flow in a simple and reliable manner. You might also consider this approach, and follow your regulator with an adjustable needle valve. Whether you put a quarter-turn quick shut-off valve before or after the regulator doesn't really matter too much. Personally, I like to have a shut-off valve as the first thing in series, just in case the regulator fails or leaks or someone knocks off the pressure gauge, etc. But I've seen arrangements both ways, and some inexpensive regulators are sold with a tank connection already attached so the first thing would be the regulator.

shawn 2009-06-18T19:50:09Z Tedward http://CH3CH2CH3.tribe.net/thread/32d50b1a-3bb5-42c6-9c6c-aaf3a153f18e#1013031d-f2a8-46ac-9d20-bc9bbbede613 2009-06-18T17:59:12Z 2009-06-18T17:59:12Z

Again, I'm not much for regulators. I'm happy with a ball valve at the source for regulation and a flashback suppressor.

Tedward 2009-06-18T17:59:12Z mr. dug http://CH3CH2CH3.tribe.net/thread/32d50b1a-3bb5-42c6-9c6c-aaf3a153f18e#0dda3dc1-d183-4498-a61e-14cc7a92b1a3 2009-06-18T16:00:33Z 2009-06-18T16:00:33Z

oh... i think things just clicked in my head so i can answer my own questions. does this sound right: if you managed to connect up to a full tank without a regulator, turned it on and lit it... well, that would be huge... and with propane being heavier than air, that'd get very dangerous (massive low propane cloud) very quickly? this leads me to believe that the regulator always goes on first. and this is the reason behind the different thread patterns.

mr. dug 2009-06-18T16:00:33Z mr. dug http://CH3CH2CH3.tribe.net/thread/32d50b1a-3bb5-42c6-9c6c-aaf3a153f18e#555a6368-69ba-467a-9819-2c6a8d3ff284 2009-06-18T13:05:27Z 2009-06-18T13:05:27Z

do you put your valve before or after the regulator? how close to the flames can you put another valve?

mr. dug 2009-06-18T13:05:27Z Tedward http://CH3CH2CH3.tribe.net/thread/32d50b1a-3bb5-42c6-9c6c-aaf3a153f18e#055daabb-b046-4528-8bae-40e934f4de1e 2009-06-18T08:39:39Z 2009-06-18T08:39:39Z

Heheh.... Yeah, sometimes when you have a LOT of flow, or a long expansion area, a little LPG condenses on the walls of the device and takes a little while to get to the exit. No biggie. But, yes, I like to insure that I have a ball valve at the source, and another at the device. that way, if you happen to be at either end when you need it shut off, you can do it quickly.

Tedward 2009-06-18T08:39:39Z mr. dug http://CH3CH2CH3.tribe.net/thread/32d50b1a-3bb5-42c6-9c6c-aaf3a153f18e#d009cc72-f119-40eb-851d-c51189f95771 2009-06-18T02:59:24Z 2009-06-18T02:59:24Z

p.s. the shutoff valve is a really nice feature. it's worth investing in an another nipple.

mr. dug 2009-06-18T02:59:24Z mr. dug http://CH3CH2CH3.tribe.net/thread/32d50b1a-3bb5-42c6-9c6c-aaf3a153f18e#8c882e27-73f4-47bb-bf8c-8fe6dd8c45a7 2009-06-18T02:25:54Z 2009-06-18T02:25:54Z

that's something to chew on, thanks. check out my 2 new pics. fun, simple. but wow... it was raining and i lit it. is that a red flag or something? let's just say there was a cloud much lower than i thought it would be. luckily no harm done, but wow. it seems that an adjustable regulator would help minimize the cloud? also, is it normal for the flame to linger after the valve is shut?

mr. dug 2009-06-18T02:25:54Z Tedward http://CH3CH2CH3.tribe.net/thread/32d50b1a-3bb5-42c6-9c6c-aaf3a153f18e#37c3a321-2440-4bf1-8aa2-7ab00bb33740 2009-06-17T23:38:37Z 2009-06-17T23:38:37Z

I'm gonna let someone else answer the regulator questions. Yes, at certain temperatures *and pressures* propane is a liquid. The bottles you buy are filled to a high enough pressure to liquify the propane at normal temperatures. When you release some pressure, the propane instantly converts part of it's mass to a gas. It must draw heat from somewhere to do it, this leaves the liquid slightly cooler. With a steady stream flowing, this effect multiplies and eventually sucks enough heat from the bottle that water condenses and freezes to the surface of the bottle. this can happen wherever the gas expands.

Tedward 2009-06-17T23:38:37Z mr. dug http://CH3CH2CH3.tribe.net/thread/32d50b1a-3bb5-42c6-9c6c-aaf3a153f18e#8da667f7-e684-4b72-b5f6-c475e56bfac0 2009-06-17T20:20:56Z 2009-06-17T20:20:56Z

4. i was referring to using the tank's valve to affect the height of the flame, but wondered if the regulator would hinder that somehow i'm not clear on why a regulator is needed... what happens without one? any reason not to go with this for my adjustable regulator? or is there a most preferred supplier? http://www.protanksupply.com/regulatorsdetail.asp?sku=2000 LPG. let's see if i have this straight: the propane is stored as a liquid in a 20# tank. going from LPG to plumbing means going from liquid to gas? what causes that change? is that change the root of the freezing issue?

mr. dug 2009-06-17T20:20:56Z Tedward http://CH3CH2CH3.tribe.net/thread/32d50b1a-3bb5-42c6-9c6c-aaf3a153f18e#dbaaab1c-a882-47ce-a6cf-a2ae6de0c6f7 2009-06-17T20:01:28Z 2009-06-17T20:01:28Z

1. You can find a lot of various sized ball valves in the plumbing areas of HD. 2. Once you move from LPG to Plumbing, you shouldn't need to go back. 3. no idea 4. Umm, not until you get to "poofer" level of flow do the tanks usually become an issue. 5. Many Many, but their heigh will decrease based on the total flow of your system (including regulation) 6. The minute you go outdoors. 7. After about a minute's use at full blast.

Tedward 2009-06-17T20:01:28Z mr. dug http://CH3CH2CH3.tribe.net/thread/32d50b1a-3bb5-42c6-9c6c-aaf3a153f18e#5a940f08-cda5-4f8f-bbcd-29316d12025c 2009-06-17T19:40:02Z 2009-06-17T19:40:02Z

yeah, i'm thinking the first incarnation can be as i described just so i can get my fire fix and see something happen sooner rather than later and that the next step would be to add a shutoff valve and look into an adjustable regulator... cause i'm sure i'll get bored being limited to just one orifice... 1 do shutoff valves come in various sizes? namely 1/2"? 2 and what's the deal with the different thread patterns or is there typically only a need to go between those once? 3 what's the PSI of a common grill regulator? 4 i have a torch, so i think i can envision adjusting the height of the flame... i guess the tank couldn't be used because the regulator would, well, regulate? 5 also, how many orifices do you think a 20# tank can, uh, fill at a given time? 6 at what point is steel wool recommended for the flames to withstand wind? 7 at what point does freezing become an issue?

mr. dug 2009-06-17T19:40:02Z shawn http://CH3CH2CH3.tribe.net/thread/32d50b1a-3bb5-42c6-9c6c-aaf3a153f18e#f34e7c63-bd64-4228-a293-bfd04697d06b 2009-06-17T18:09:46Z 2009-06-17T18:09:46Z

A common grill regulator might not have enough pressure if you want a lot of flame orifices. In any case, it would be a good idea to have some kind of flow adjustment available to control the height of your flame. This could be a simple needle valve, or perhaps you could upgrade your regulator to a small adjustable one, say 0-15 PSI. You can find these small adjustable regulators online for typical use with torches and fryers. I don't think you need a check valve (to prevent airflow back into the tank) because you'll always have positive pressure, but it would be good to have a quick shutoff valve close to the tank in case of a leak. A 1/4 turn brass ball valve should do the trick... it's much faster to give that valve a quick turn than to screw in the main tank tank valve to shut down in case of emergency.

shawn 2009-06-17T18:09:46Z Steamboat Ed http://CH3CH2CH3.tribe.net/thread/32d50b1a-3bb5-42c6-9c6c-aaf3a153f18e#9e74aab0-ba79-4382-adbe-3282e11bf932 2009-06-17T16:30:15Z 2009-06-17T16:30:15Z

--Maybe a check valve?

Steamboat Ed 2009-06-17T16:30:15Z mr. dug http://CH3CH2CH3.tribe.net/thread/32d50b1a-3bb5-42c6-9c6c-aaf3a153f18e#e8107289-8974-436f-8fea-3c1a2f5c933c 2009-06-17T13:53:37Z 2009-06-17T13:53:37Z

here goes with a verbal description. it's pretty simple. this is my first home made propane toy, so i'm looking for any design considerations... 20# tank to a grill regulator with 10" hose from home depot with a 3/8" fitting 3/8" fitting to 1/2" fitting (also goes between different thread patterns) 1/2" fitting to 2" nipple 2" nipple to 3 way connector the down side has an 18" long 1/2" black pipe with an end cap the up side has a 60" long black pipe 2 foot spike into the ground half way, the down side is simply tied to this with metal wire i still need to tighten everything using that tape stuff maybe check each connection with soapy water and fix any leaks and i need some sort of a sexy top to disperse the gas all purdy. ideas welcome here, too. but that's the basic design. sound safe? looking for any feedback before i light'r up.

mr. dug 2009-06-17T13:53:37Z