What to do?

topic posted Sat, July 18, 2009 - 12:52 PM by  offlineXTREME PYRO
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I just scored 2 10 gal. propane tanks! I want to make a basic manuel opperated, poofer. Can I use one tank for an accumulator?
posted by:
XTREME PYRO
San Diego
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  • Re: What to do?

    Sun, July 19, 2009 - 11:21 AM
    You should totally use those to grill food for people.

    I don't know who Manuel is, but you should check with him if he's ok with operating your flame effect. Creo que, Manuel no te gusta el fuego.

    If you really are interested in making some fire come out of those, please please talk to some other experienced fire artists in person, and skim through the NFPA regulations that pertain to your effect. There is already too much dangerous plumbing floating around, as a result of people using insufficient rated pipe, fittings, or expired tanks. Also: if the tanks don't have OPD valves, you should only use them as accumulators.

    Really, making a small and simple ball valve effect can be easy, yes, but it is in no way innovative or original, and asking random people on the internet to help you is a recipe for ending up on failblog.com.
    • Unsu...
       

      Re: What to do?

      Sun, July 19, 2009 - 7:33 PM
      Manuel,

      I agree with Sam. You should totally throw on some steaks and feed people.
    • Re: What to do?

      Sun, July 19, 2009 - 8:45 PM
      Thank you for the advice.... So.......I guess I have two accumulators! LOL! OK, my "in person" person is curently MIA! (rehab, jail, what ever!)
      So, Ihave 2 accumulators, and would like some advice. Mayby I'm on the wrong Tribe?
      I am building a trike with a 'poofer' (i know some dont like that term)
      But here are my Questions,
      1) What type and size should my supply tank be?
      2)How far away should the accumulators be from the supply
      3) is Black Iron good, or should I use seamless stainless?
      4) I was thinking about a pulse valve triggerd from a push button swich, on the handelbars of my trike.

      I'm a plumber with years on gas line,(this dose not make me a flame effects specialist by any means) understand the concepts written here, and will find the recorces to get the info I need to do this in a safe mannor. By no means, I will not "short cut" any knowlage I gain,
      I respect the safty of others, and the addvice given to me.

      Thank you
      XTREME PYRO
      • Re: What to do?

        Sun, July 19, 2009 - 9:04 PM
        No, you're in the right tribe. It's just that people here are a little sketchy because someone in this ttribe recently had a pretty major accident, based, in part, on the advice they got here.

        1) Like anything, the bigger the supply, the more the toy will run. Start with a little portable bottle for brazing torches and move up from there.
        2) At least 3mm of aluminum and a good ball valve. Distance is functionally irrelevant; connectivity is king.
        3) Got me. I'm a fan of copper, but I don't do separate accumulators.
        4) Electric systems add several layers of problems:
        . a) How do you keep the system charged?
        . b) How do you ignite the poofer?
        . c) what happens when your valve freezes? [notice, not "if"]
        . d) shorts in the system plague electric systems.
        . e) long arm manual valves are so much more reliable.

        Also, check the legality of poofers on mobile vehicles wherever you plan on running these. Black rock has a 10' height limitation, California won't let you shoot liquid fuel, etc.
      • Re: What to do?

        Sun, July 19, 2009 - 10:45 PM
        Thot I'd add a thought or two; by no means gospel, I'm just a guy who's built a few poofers and I haven't blown myself up yet.
        1) Store-bought propane tank with new style threads
        2) I keep the two near enough so that I can reach all valves without having to run back and forth. Re: valves: use Parker brand: they're the best and they're rated far higher than normal plumbing fittings. Use NO cast fittings; stick with machined fittings. I prefer brass over stainless because it's cheaper and easier to machine.
        3) Black iron pipe? Maybe; just be sure you avoid brass pipe because, altho it looks pretty it's prone to cracking. Copper tube can crack too, if exposed to excessive flexing, but it's easy to anneal; not so brass. Seamless stainless is nice but it's *very* expensive. If you decide to go with stainless use tube, not pipe and use Swageloc fittings. Just a personal preference. Only reason I can think of to use it, tho, is for piping that's going to be in a direct fire path for loooong stretches of time; i.e. for superheaters in steam boiler fireboxes for instance.
        4) Have a backup just in case...
        --Glad you're a plumber; you'll get the hang of it quick enough. Re: pilot lights: I'd stay away from sparkers and stick with a fire pilot, using bronze wool around a perforated steel tube. It's more wind-resistant and the glow makes it easier to see if it's working.
        • Re: What to do?

          Mon, July 20, 2009 - 6:46 AM
          Thanks guys!
          I do plan on useing this at BRC in '10.
          I'm not a big fan of aluminum on fire toys, and do like that copper is ok, Type 'L' hard pipe, and can do machined brass fittings.
          Gata go to work & earn some funding!
          Thanks again!
          XTREME
      • Re: What to do?

        Mon, July 20, 2009 - 10:33 AM
        >I'm a plumber with years on gas line,(this dose not make me a flame effects specialist by any means) understand the concepts written here, and will find the recorces to get the info I need to do this in a safe mannor. By no means, I will not "short cut" any knowlage I gain,
        I respect the safty of others, and the addvice given to me.

        While just being words, that makes me feel a lot differently. See, we've got this unspoken gentleman's agreement here that we don't give a full run-down on how to build a flame effect device. We'll answer specific questions, but if you say "hey, design my burning man project for me", you're going to get a "F-OFF" on two levels. One, I won't design your project, and two, holyhell the liability of such a thing.

        Also, the XTREME PYRO name made me hesitant to take you seriously.

        1) size type supply? That is wholly dependant on how often you want to empty/refill your accumulators. Also, keep in mind that larger tanks generally have less surface area, and are more prone to icing up.
        2)Accumulators can be at the supply. the effects must be a specific distance from your storage tanks. How far the accumulators are from storage is how long it takes to refill them, how far from accumulator to outlet is how fast or slow it is going to release.
        3) iron. For what? If anything is pressurized, it better f'in be scheduled or rated. enough said.
        4) Asco Red Hats are pretty nice.

        But really, I have to say, if you want to positively affect more people's lives, spend all this money on food and burn that propane to heat it. then stagger over to 2pir, Illumination Village, DSC, False Profit Labs, Controlled Burn, or any number of the other large fire thingies, get them to let you Push The Button, and make a lot of fire.
        • Re: What to do?

          Mon, July 20, 2009 - 10:52 AM
          No offence taken Sam.

          And HELL NO I dont want you to design my project! that would take all the fun out of it!
          I am looking for some guidance, so I'm not going in the wrong direction.

          My project is kinda selfish, for my own plessure, not to impress others.
          Thank you!
          p.s. Xtreme pyro comes from Pyro tecknics, rockets and artilery shots, amiture fireworks
          • Re: What to do?

            Tue, July 21, 2009 - 12:43 AM
            I use 3000 psi steel hydraulic fittings; they're reasonably cheap (surpluscenter.com) and quite rugged. Schedule 80 or higher pipe & nipples, and proper brackets & mountings so no fittings take significant bending loads... propane rated hose and valves... it's not hard, but difficult to do cheap quickly. Schedule 40 from the hardware store will NOT do.

            Assemble plumbing w/ Rectorseal #5 or equivalent.
            Check for leaks w/ compressed air and soapy water; close off assembly and let sit w/ pressure gage attached - there should be no leak down.

            Don't heat propane; pilot flame should be nowhere near valves, accumulators, etc, that are under pressure.
            Don't design liquid propane systems - keep tanks upright.
            Avoid tank heaters.
            Have fire extinguishers ready.

            Poofers can be pretty simple to do, but keep in mind the consequences of failure. This is one of those areas that "that's good enough" really isn't; treat this like working on the brakes on your motorcycle - you really need to get this right; details matter.

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