So I've got this idea to bubble propane or natural gas through water and let it burn at the surface as kind of a funky fireplace kinda thing. Has anybody here tried such a thing?
My thinking is that it would look as though I've got a container of liquid fuel that's boiling and on fire. Kinda dangerous looking and stuff. Has somebody done this and discovered that is was impractical or lame?
I can't imagine that I'm the first to think of it. Especially with some of the ingenius things I see on this tribe. But if I am the first, I'm prepared to forge ahead and see what kind of damage I can do.
My thinking is that it would look as though I've got a container of liquid fuel that's boiling and on fire. Kinda dangerous looking and stuff. Has somebody done this and discovered that is was impractical or lame?
I can't imagine that I'm the first to think of it. Especially with some of the ingenius things I see on this tribe. But if I am the first, I'm prepared to forge ahead and see what kind of damage I can do.
-
Re: Fire effect on top of water?
Mon, December 17, 2007 - 6:47 PMThey had a white gas fountain at the Burn a couple of years back, they just injected white gas into the top tier of a fountain and lit it up.
Some friends of mine did a propane version with sand that worked really nicely, haven't seen water, though, you'd have to make sure you have Very small bubbles, or it may prove hard to keep lit... -
-
Re: Fire effect on top of water?
Mon, December 17, 2007 - 7:21 PMSo a longer diffuser with lots and lots of tiny holes will work best you think? I'm probably just gonna put together something that I can sit into a bucket of water for the first try.
We do some gas fireplaces at work and those use about eighth inch holes for natural gas. You think double the number of holes and about 16th of an inch? I hadn't really considered needing smaller bubbles, my plan was to shoot first and aim later. (it seems to work for the boss) -
-
Re: Fire effect on top of water?
Mon, December 17, 2007 - 9:27 PMYeah, lots of LITTLE holes.
But now that I think about it, it might work better if the water was just a little soapy, too. The foam will pop as it gets heated and forma controlled release. Try the micro holes first though.
Hmm, 1/16th is still a bit big, go for the very smallest holes you can and build up as needed. -
-
Re: Fire effect on top of water?
Mon, December 17, 2007 - 9:59 PM -
-
Re: Fire effect on top of water?
Mon, December 17, 2007 - 11:29 PMYup, that's it.
-
-
Re: Fire effect on top of water?
Tue, December 18, 2007 - 9:30 AMputting a screen mesh over a hole will most likely break up the bubbles into smaller ones. I've never specifically tried propane like that, it could have some special properties. Also expect it to be a little smokey. Propane, and especially nevada propane, has a lot of oil in it, and will accumulate on top of your water as scum and burn. -
-
Re: Fire effect on top of water?
Tue, December 18, 2007 - 11:10 AMEven better. That burning scum will help keep a flame around for the next bubble to ignite from. -
-
Re: Fire effect on top of water?
Tue, December 18, 2007 - 2:36 PM>That burning scum will help keep a flame around...
sounds like a description of how san francisco hipster bars stay profitable -
-
Re: Fire effect on top of water?
Tue, December 18, 2007 - 3:55 PMI've seen this exact thing at the Peppermill. It didn't appear to have any soap and the bubbles didn't appear to be diffused. I say just try it with a normal output and fiddle with it from there. If your familliar with propane plumbing this should be easy.
The worse case scenarios that I can thnk of are not practical which would be adding an O2 feed to the propane (don't do that) Or if you were trying to do it in a larger water container like a pool at full blast, but even then you would only get a poof at first then a constant flame asuming constant feed.
However if you are after the effect of the whole can of gass (water) on fire getting a diffuser to spread out the bubbles will work better than a single feed otherwise you get a big candle flame in the middle and that's it.
Have fun and Don't kill Yourself :D
Cody -
-
Re: Fire effect on top of water?
Tue, December 18, 2007 - 4:23 PMOooh, I like the candle in the middle. You could even feed it off the propane source: like a little finger poking up through the top of the water....
-
-
This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Fire effect on top of water?
Wed, December 19, 2007 - 12:18 AMI had mixed luck with raw propane in water...for the way I had my effect rigged, it seemed that alot of propane was wasted at low pressure/volume of gas, and at high volume, the effect was WAY too big for what I was going for, and splashed the water too much so I was looseing water from the effect.
So I ended up having a water effect (a 6 foot tall, 6 inch diameter acrlyic tube) with a smaller watertight tube (one inch) with propane coming out of that. The last 3 inches of the propane tube is stuck to a metal hose attachment , and 1/2 inch jutts out of the water. The water cooled the interface, so it works pretty damn slick.
I missed the bubbles from the propane, so I added a cheap fish tank bubbler. -
-
Re: Fire effect on top of water?
Wed, December 19, 2007 - 10:54 AMThat is a good point, the one I saw was a pool of water about 5 foot in diameter and probably 6 inches of water. It was big enough that the bubbles didn't make too big a splash. If you use a bucket depending on how much flow you have you may bubble the water out. Shoot for a larger diameter pool for an fountain like effect.
My bet is that raw propane will do just fine if you have a large enough basin of water. 6 inch diameter would have a "wate retention" problem, but I bet it looks really cool :) -
-
Re: Fire effect on top of water?
Wed, December 19, 2007 - 4:27 PMI think you'd also have to watch your depth. Too deep means too much water pressure, and with too large a hole, you might get water feeding back into the tube.
From what little i know, the propane should accumulate on the surface, being heavier than air, so having high sides to contain the gas would work nicely. Cool idea.
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
Re: Fire effect on top of water?
Thu, December 20, 2007 - 12:42 PMi have done this twice now, its a really cool and very simple effect.
first project was to bubble propane out of a small jet under water in small pond in friends back yard, it worked really well but i had to tweak the gas pressure just right to get it to stay lit. It look like the pit of eternal stench bog from labyrinth!
next time i did this was with a bronze fountain i made, i simply tee'd the output from the pump with a orificed propane feed and got a bubbly propane out put with the water. The effect was really pleasing, again, i had it o tweak the pressure just right to maintain a burn on top of the water. But damn, what a cool effect, the propane falls burning down the side of the fountain and looks like liquid fuel!
I have not done that since, but i support you efforts, and by the way, eventually the water gets hot, so use a bronze impeller pump.
J.. -
-
Re: Fire effect on top of water?
Thu, December 20, 2007 - 5:32 PMSweet.
Didja think of dropping the main bowl in dry ice or something to keep the water cool?
-
-
Re: Fire effect on top of water?
Fri, December 21, 2007 - 6:33 AMThanks for all the great input guys. The fountain in the pictures is really cool. But not quite what I have in mind. Justin seems to be on exactly the same page as me. Did your water get boiling hot? And did you observe much smoke from the thing?
Ideally I'll be able to use this as a heat source in a semi-sealed up tent. I want to end up with a small firepit like contraption that three or four people can sit around and stay warm.
I think I'm going to look into a portable natural gas tank as well, probably cost prohibitive, but I like to know my options before I get carried away.
I've got the entire xmas week off from work, if I can tear myself away from the forge, I'm going to play with this idea and get the scale of it figured out. -
-
Re: Fire effect on top of water?
Fri, December 21, 2007 - 10:48 AMIt would not be a good idea in a tent, the propane is not burning completely thus giving off carbon monoxide.
Natural gas would do the same thing. However, a fire pit that you sit around but has water too, thats cool, just dont put into sealed tent.
Natural gas comes in 3000 psi carbon aluminum tanks for cars and trucks, i have never heard of them in a small hand held form. I would start big on this, build a fountain first, then try flowing propane into it and if you have NG at your place try that to. Oh and the water on my fountain could have gotten really hot, but i was using a Becket plastic submersible pump, so i shut down before that got too hot. -
-
Re: Fire effect on top of water?
Fri, December 21, 2007 - 11:15 AMNo worries about carbon monoxide poisoning. It'll be in my Costco carport that's missing the little triangle piece above the door.
I've seen those tanks for cars used on Craigslist for 2 or 3 hundred. That's where I get the impression that it might not be economically feasible. I'm looking for a lighter cheaper CNG tank that's not intended to be mounted in a car.
I'm going to try mine with just a diffuser and no pump first. I'm not after a fountain effect, so I'll see how it goes. My hope is the whole thing looks like a simple tub of flammable liquid burning. It'll fuck with people. -
-
Re: Fire effect on top of water?
Fri, December 21, 2007 - 12:05 PMnasty trick:
fill bucket with water, run propane into bucket, tell friends its burning liquid fuel, then dump it out at there feet.
oohh nasty joke.
not sure where you would get a small non automotive cng tank, but the oakland private air terminal has a filling station and damn its as easy as inserting a credit card and attaching the nozzle to the cng tank. -
-
Re: Fire effect on top of water?
Fri, December 21, 2007 - 12:23 PMAlas I'm in Utah and not the bay area. Otherwise I'd probably know several of you guys in person. I was just noticing somebody mentioned carefull control of pressure is needed. Any thoughts on retasking a stainless steel nitrous oxide regulator for propane or even CNG? I scored it dumpster diving. -
-
Re: Fire effect on top of water?
Fri, December 21, 2007 - 1:20 PMthey say not to do that. but i say fuck them. use the regulator for whatever you want, i do. i have used ever different kind of regulator for every different kind of gas with little negative effect. usually a nitrous regulator will not have a cga 550 nipple on it so just unscrew the damn thing and screw in a cga 550 (propane nipple) assuming the n20 regulator has a 1/4 npt port on it.
btw, its probably not a stainless steel tank, but aluminum also, remember, CNG is 3k psi so just use a tank that can handle that pressure. If you are going to use a local CNG filling station, you will need a vehicle style CNG port. I suggest ebay.
good luck and fuck those who tell you other wise.
-
Re: Fire effect on top of water?
Fri, December 21, 2007 - 5:36 PMi am pretty sure that one can find a ng or propane reg for like 20 bones....
-
-
Re: Fire effect on top of water?
Fri, March 21, 2008 - 7:05 PMinstead of a hard line that you drill...you can always try a fish tank air stone....works great...Pat O'brian's in the French Quarter has that setup in their fountain...never goes out...set thepressure, and drain the tanks. -
-
Re: Fire effect on top of water?
Mon, March 31, 2008 - 6:10 PMThere are a few videos of Pat O'Brien's fire fountain, but I think he's more looking for this kind of effect.
www.youtube.com/watch
-
-
-
-
-
-
-