Tribe.net. Local Connections $item.owner.firstName http://CH3CH2CH3.tribe.net/thread/c2a2cb36-455c-4483-9b3d-51d4d9f6abdc#122cd81a-b1ae-4f35-98ec-3de83bba21c0 2009-06-26T00:58:46Z 2009-06-26T00:58:46Z

Thats correct. That's the basic system. But that's the key. How to do it safely. You have to look at the potential of disaster. I understand you cannot do anything about a renegade art bus traveling toward you propane tanks at 50 miles an hour. You have to look at what you can control. Colemans device is so safe it doesn't work after the first season. It has both temperature and pressure cutouts. but isnt very rugged, and has a prety low BTU capacity. Its fine for vaporizing two hundred lbs of propane over a five hour period. Any more than that and you're beyond its thermal capacity. And if its particularly cold that evening it may not be able to do that, plenty of heat is lost to atmosphere in the process. Most household flash heaters have the same safety's in them. I've found the bosch units to be more hardwired than electronic. They are more rugged and certainly more repairable if a problem arsises. they are designed to last 10 or 15 year in household use, not provide you with a warm shower or two on your weeklong vacation to the forest. Household propane flash heaters do not rewuire a specific battery and voltage to run. they are more mechanical than that and the heater itself doe not require power.....just flow across the main valve. That means the only thing you have to actually control and power is the pump.

$item.owner.firstName 2009-06-26T00:58:46Z $item.owner.firstName http://CH3CH2CH3.tribe.net/thread/c2a2cb36-455c-4483-9b3d-51d4d9f6abdc#dab99ba3-8e8f-4031-b739-9d3a85d2f3bf 2009-06-26T00:41:36Z 2009-06-26T00:41:36Z

<<<"Wait.... if there's a regulator on the entire system... why would one need a pressure sensor shut-off? Water temp would be fine right?">>> The short answer is: You need a double safety. You are placing a potenitally full tank of propane in a water bath. You are using a propane or electric heating device in order to add BTU's to this water bath preferably at the same rate you are taking BTU's out of the water bath by the endothermic process of evaporating the propane inside the tank from a liquid to a gas during its phase change. Ideally you will only add enough heat a little at a time in order to maintain the status-quo of the system. The idea is to add a little heat at a time in order to maintain a specific temperature and or pressure, By doing this you maintain a happy equilibrium. However....You have to plan for potential failure of this process. When the potential failure scenario involves the unit accidentally heating the water bath to potentially high temperatures and therefore pressures with disastrous results. If you're considering building a tank heating system, one should be careful not to risk the lives of anyone in the vicinity. An example failure: thermostat fails to disengage heater at maximum temperature. One is ignoring the heat system because they are having fun talking about their propane toy with 300 people standing around. Not only do you have a huge increase in tank pressure and temperature, but if the rest of the pressurized system is at a lower temperature than the tanks, even though it is regulated as to pressure condensation of vapor into liquid further down the line will occur. Why a flash heater on both a pressure switch and a thermostat? First off with start withe the flash heater. A propane flash heater has a pilot the runs all the time. the main burner does not run unless flow is achieved through the system. That means it runs based on flow. all you have to do to heat is turn the pump on and off. Also a flash heater does not have a reservoir like a standard R.V. water heater or household water heater. This is important. Last thing you want ot do is have the instant potential of dumping 50 gallons of 150 degree waster into you water bath by accident. It takes time for heat to absorb, so a huge reservoir of hot water is just an unnessecary hazard to all. A flash heater can add heat as needed in relatively small amounts as nessecary. Why the pressure differential switch and the thermostat? Easy. it a double (actually triple) safety that works on two different theories of physics. you control the pump with this circuit. pump on-heater on because of flow. pump off, heater off because of flow. We control the pump because if the heater physically fails itself, we can cut flow automatically, which cuts heat because there is no water available to transfer it. The pressure differential switch is exactly that. it opens and closes based on the pressure it is receiving. If we set it to 100 psi maximum, it open circuits at 100 psi. The differential might be set at 5 psi. which means the switch will not become closed again until pressure drops to 95psi. If we place this in series with a thermostat designed to open the circuit at 74F and close the circuit at 70F we now have a highly safe system. In order to activate the pump and therefore the heat we have to satisfy two things: tanks must be below 95 PSI and the water temperature must be less than 70. The pump kicks on. Now if either the temperature gets too high before the tanks can absorb the heat or the pressure gets too high because demand for vapor propane has decreased the pump shuts down. Its two ways of looking at the same thing. pressure and temperature are interrelated. Its a double safety. Even if one item fails there is another device in the same circuit that can also shut the pump off. These are wires in series for a reason. If the pressure switch fails, the temperature switch will open. if the thermostat fails, the pressure switch will open. It just decreases the chance of an accident. Common sense says you still have to watch the thing. it must be monitored. But building safety into it does not hurt. If you take apart the coleman unit you will find the same thing. the burner operates based on flow, there is a pressure switch and a temperature switch. The electronics look complex and are incased in jello stuff, but it performs the same basic function.

$item.owner.firstName 2009-06-26T00:41:36Z Knagi http://CH3CH2CH3.tribe.net/thread/c2a2cb36-455c-4483-9b3d-51d4d9f6abdc#6889759d-1a9c-404c-9583-45800ecb7c57 2009-06-25T17:51:47Z 2009-06-25T17:51:47Z

Wait.... if there's a regulator on the entire system... why would one need a pressure sensor shut-off? Water temp would be fine right?

Knagi 2009-06-25T17:51:47Z Knagi http://CH3CH2CH3.tribe.net/thread/c2a2cb36-455c-4483-9b3d-51d4d9f6abdc#463acf69-82cc-435c-86df-421e6e9e39c3 2009-06-25T17:50:07Z 2009-06-25T17:50:07Z

YES, you did LOL, ;) the pump was blown and in the process of troubleshooting I remounted the plug ontop of, (instead of under) it's mount which caused a short so the new pump wouldn't work. So I'm back in business for another year with my 100$ broken heater from ebay. However before that enlightening moment I was thinking out how to rip out all the electric components and replace them with manual valves and such. As I learned how the unit functioned it became increasingly clear that the cost of these devices is with the fail-safes and logic circuits and pretty casing. In basics all you need is some copper tubing snaked over a handful of venturi and a pump to move water through it.

Knagi 2009-06-25T17:50:07Z $item.owner.firstName http://CH3CH2CH3.tribe.net/thread/c2a2cb36-455c-4483-9b3d-51d4d9f6abdc#ee807ab0-2938-45c1-8123-04244d6b0330 2009-06-24T01:48:31Z 2009-06-24T01:48:31Z

NO! I didn't curse you, That's just how those things are. They are good for a camping season or until the warranty expires. That's it. Its not the cost of the heater. Heaters are cheap. even a huge one runs about 500 dollars. I'm partial to the Bosch propane and nat gas units. The expensive part is the control circuits, pump, hoses,wiring, frame , differential pressure switch, and thermostat. You figure a medium sized tankless propane flash heater runs about 350. thermostat, outdoor and waterproof 200. differential pressure switch another 150, misc wiring and cords, power switch, pump, hose. A heater on its own is pretty useless and quite dangerous, frankly.

$item.owner.firstName 2009-06-24T01:48:31Z Knagi http://CH3CH2CH3.tribe.net/thread/c2a2cb36-455c-4483-9b3d-51d4d9f6abdc#90e25836-469c-4d85-bba5-878d96002452 2009-06-23T23:18:10Z 2009-06-23T23:18:10Z

Hey no!!! Not fair!! You cursed me!!! I go and get it out a storage and low and behold IT DOESN'T WORK! Troubleshooting had me buy a new pump, now it's not firing the ignitor!! Dude seriously! :P I don't have huge needs, I'm exploring the idea of getting a 250$ tankless heater, but as little as I use it for propane I'd hook it up to use in the house. how do they compare to tank water heaters? What about Ebay Item number: 270373648532 Think that would be enough to keep a 100lb tank pushing at least 50psi in a small bucket of water??

Knagi 2009-06-23T23:18:10Z $item.owner.firstName http://CH3CH2CH3.tribe.net/thread/c2a2cb36-455c-4483-9b3d-51d4d9f6abdc#df22eefa-adb7-4141-9e1c-39f689837ec8 2009-06-17T06:03:05Z 2009-06-17T06:03:05Z

The coleman heater is junk. While its safety systems are first rate, the unit has serious reliability issues. Build a heater system using a Bosch Tankless flash heater, your own pump, thermostat and pressure differential switch. You can build way more reliability, safety and capacity that way. The coleman, even modified, canot produce enough BTU's to keep a 100 lb tank stable at high demand, let alone a manifold of five tanks.

$item.owner.firstName 2009-06-17T06:03:05Z Knagi http://CH3CH2CH3.tribe.net/thread/c2a2cb36-455c-4483-9b3d-51d4d9f6abdc#596d8908-e31f-4ef5-9f3a-3a5998588259 2009-06-16T13:36:42Z 2009-06-16T13:36:42Z

Colemen sells a nice portable water heater that allows a 100lb tank to empty in about three hours. I use a Single source and regulate it down to 60psi and heat it to at least 70 degrees. I don't see why a board can't be made that would simply control the on/off switch or power supply of the heater dependent on the water temp and pre-regulator pressure. I'm working on a thermocouple override for my dinky LPT relay setup. Seems right along the same path.

Knagi 2009-06-16T13:36:42Z sam "problem solved" http://CH3CH2CH3.tribe.net/thread/c2a2cb36-455c-4483-9b3d-51d4d9f6abdc#22c0b693-59fd-4efd-a357-f523792faee8 2009-06-12T17:22:13Z 2009-06-12T17:22:13Z

And a side note to that. If you're going to use a household water heater, get a high head pump, elsewise it will behave erratically, as it expects a lot of flow of water coming from the pipe, not the measily dribble most electric water pumps deliver. I'm talking a 400-700 dollar pump. And almost none of those are self priming...

sam "problem solved" 2009-06-12T17:22:13Z $item.owner.firstName http://CH3CH2CH3.tribe.net/thread/c2a2cb36-455c-4483-9b3d-51d4d9f6abdc#6e52c34d-e6df-4bd0-9078-023105701bb8 2009-06-12T03:57:35Z 2009-06-12T03:57:35Z

Its not just the pressure though. Its fuel density. As the temperature of the tank drops, so does the temperature of the vapor at the regulator. Which eventually warms up further on down the piping or at the outlets of any given effect or pilot. About the only way to keep things consistent is to control both the temperature of the propane in the tank as well as the pressure with a regulator. The destabilization of the system is a result of depending on atmospheric heat to vaporize the propane in the tank. It takes a whole lot of BTU's to vaporize 500 gallons of propane. If you lack a system with the ability to add the heat necessary to vaporize the propane at the rate you are using it it'll never be consistent. I'd recommend all 5 tanks be put into a water bath, and a system be designed to add heat as needed. Mind you, that means a system that keeps that water bath at a consistant temperature. If you want 100 psi, a nice constant 74 degrees or so is all that is needed. A good system will have a thermostat that will engage the heater at 71 and shut it off at 74. Another thing this heating this system should have is a pressure differential switch which disables the heat at 105 PSI regardless of temperature and allow the heater to engage on its normal thermostatic control below that. If the thermoswitch and pressure switch logic are in series, then you have a system that keeps the tanks at a stable pressure and temperature, adds only the BTUs' needed to vaporize the propnae you are using, and shuts itself off when finished. Its a thousand dollar solution though. I havent found a way to do it cheaper. Also....Opening one valve at a time on a set of manifolded tanks causes a huge pressure differential between the tanks. That is asking for migration. It'd be better to open all five tanks simultaneously. That way all the tanks remain at a constant temperature, and pressure and minimal migration occurs.

$item.owner.firstName 2009-06-12T03:57:35Z Cinder http://CH3CH2CH3.tribe.net/thread/c2a2cb36-455c-4483-9b3d-51d4d9f6abdc#754ba722-8433-49e1-b784-988d79caaee1 2009-06-12T01:15:47Z 2009-06-12T01:15:47Z

you could run a seperate system for the pilots. One seperate 10 gallon tank for example. but this may be a infeasible redesign. on one of my systems I have a swing valve before each pilot (16 effects), and each pilot has a smallish accumlator. This allows for a bit of pressure adjustment at each pilot light, and they run rock solid from 20 psi to 100 psi. I also am using real propane torch burners for my pilots, non of the steel wool wrapped drilled pipe homebrew. Drawback? My fuel consumption is a significantly higher and the pilots are loud and hot. Keeping your source pressure constant at 45 PSI would help - the drop from 45 to 20 would be easier on your pilots. But your effects would be alot different if you are used to firing them in the 45 - 100psi range. I would guess that, in your case, a seperate pilot fuel system woulod probably be the stablest (and you can run your effects at 45-100 psi), yet most expensive route.

Cinder 2009-06-12T01:15:47Z $item.owner.firstName http://CH3CH2CH3.tribe.net/thread/c2a2cb36-455c-4483-9b3d-51d4d9f6abdc#ac70a731-2e12-49b6-9bc0-04e9cea0b91f 2009-06-11T15:56:36Z 2009-06-11T15:56:36Z

Never used one of those regulators in particular. Be sure the BTU output is what you want. You may use multiple regulators in parallel if you need more output. You should also consider that regulation in itself with no other consideration will not solve all your problems. With the tanks changing temperature you are throwing an additional variable into the equation: Density of the gasseous fuel. A better approach would be to both control and regulate output pressure with a regulator, as well as control tank temperature in a thermostatically controlled water bath. A safe and well designed water bath heater can be made to automatically maintain a specific temperature and pressure to your tanks.

$item.owner.firstName 2009-06-11T15:56:36Z Greg http://CH3CH2CH3.tribe.net/thread/c2a2cb36-455c-4483-9b3d-51d4d9f6abdc#db00ea84-496d-46fa-8778-73f4c80eeb6c 2009-06-10T17:00:32Z 2009-06-10T17:00:32Z

Our installation at BM uses a 5 - 100# bottle manifold (yes I did read the manifold post). This manifold provides propane for 8 poofers. we start the evening at 100 psi and end around 20 PSI as tanks cool. What we are looking for is a regulator that would provide high flows for our effects but be adjustable in the 30 - 80 psi range. Any ideas? We were looking at these: http://www.propanewarehouse.com/adjustableregulatordetail.asp?ID=2035 but they are backordered till August. Any help would be great. If it is easier to explain by phone I can be reached at Greg - 208-866-8902 ________________ More details if you want them: We are trying to reduce our pressure fluxations in the system because it requires constant adjustment of our pilot lights. Each pilot light has one of the standard red regulators (there name slips my mind right now) but theses regulators still do not give a constant pressure (flow) as their supply presure changes from 100 - 20. Each time a new tank in the manifold is opened we have to climb and run around for 15 minutes adjusting regulators. I thought that a primary regulator keeping things around 45 psi in conjunction with the secondary regulators would make for a much more stable system. The primary regulator needs to be high flow as when there is a mass discharge of all poofers quick recharge is the key. At our manifold we have broken down our system into 3 seperate lines each one controling a different type effect. This means we could use 3 different regulators at our manifold cutting our need for volume by 1/3 per regulator. (To describe better, all bottles manifolded together into a main pipe, then main pipe split into 3 pipes (3 seperate shutoffs), then 3 hoses run out to varying effects.) Any ides on how to solve this problem? Thanks again!

Greg 2009-06-10T17:00:32Z